Working outside of university while doing a PhD

00:00:12: Today's episode of Chances and Challenges, the BDHS podcast.

00:00:15: I'm your host Sabine Schäfer.

00:00:17: today we're talking about a situation A lot of doctoral researchers have to face sooner or later.

00:00:23: What do you when?

00:00:24: The initial funding of the PhD ends but the dissertation isn't complete yet.

00:00:29: Most PhD funding options are provided for three or four years But the average duration of a PhD is about five or six years.

00:00:36: in Germany however The rent must be paid, so more or less in the middle of the dissertation process they have to find another source of funding somewhere.

00:00:45: Some will find a position for other sort of funding at university.

00:00:49: some rely on savings and unemployment benefits And some people found that source outside academia.

00:00:56: One of them is Simon Grohs who's here with me today.

00:00:59: Dear Simon Welcome.

00:01:01: I'm very glad you're here.

00:01:02: Thank You For Having

00:01:03: Me.

00:01:04: Simon holds a Bachelor Degree in Political Science and History, and a Master's Degree In History, Philosophy & Sociology of Science.

00:01:11: Since two thousand nineteen he is working on his dissertation about the German sociologist Helmut Schelzke who was founding member for the Faculty of Sociology here at Bielefeld University.

00:01:24: Simon got a scholarship from the Cusanoswerk, a foundation of The Catholic Church for three and half years.

00:01:30: And is currently working as an integration worker at his school for children and young people with disabilities or emotional social support needs.

00:01:39: What exactly are you doing in your current job?

00:01:42: Well I help little kids who were disabled Or socially impacted by their background some way.

00:01:51: In their daily school routine, basically that's what I do.

00:01:55: we go swimming or we do excursions.

00:01:58: uh i try to assist the teachers in the class by getting the kids to do something...I listen to them..i play with him....I joke around at times just tried to sort of support there in their daily-school routine.

00:02:14: thats about it.

00:02:15: yeah that's You know,

00:02:18: because... So you are with them in the classroom and so on?

00:02:22: Yeah.

00:02:22: It's like I don't know if that is a regular way to do it but in Barendorf where i live or school is located at it usually two of three teachers per class roughly about fifteen pupils And I have colleague Jessica as her name.

00:02:41: She also has a kid who was severely disabled.

00:02:46: Yeah, we too are in the class and we take care usually of.

00:02:50: I have one child that i um That am occupied with but they also listen to other kids.

00:02:55: And you know just do stuff for them.

00:02:57: yeah Oh, that's what?

00:02:58: I do and then it's usually from eight o'clock two three o' clock In The Afternoon and We get lunch at school and uh That's What We Do.

00:03:05: We go in Landscaping or We try To Sort Of Enable Or I Try to enable the kid Because Every Kid has sort of Regarding To Their Special Needs What They Have Like what type of handicap they have, we try to figure out some ways to sort of improve their lives and be more self-reliant.

00:03:22: Sounds absolutely fascinating but it isn't a job that you would expect somebody is doing in your situation right?

00:03:30: Actually I don´t know the thing if i think about when i thought about applying for imagine myself being a Schulbegleiter, which is the name for it in German.

00:03:42: And working with handicapped children was thinking okay how does that fit to my sort of academic life and my academic vita?

00:03:48: Is there connection... The headmaster at school on Christmas party where I was invited he told me well Simon you're completely overqualified for everything here!

00:04:01: Well yeah that's kind true but at the same time, I think what i've been looking for in my academic career so far was always sort of figuring out some sort of sense-making.

00:04:15: I don't know if that's a big word but it's somethings you're just interested in

00:04:19: and

00:04:20: be.

00:04:21: as you mentioned...I studied politics and history sociology and philosophy of science.

00:04:25: that is..but nonetheless It had to do with how people make sense, How I made sense of the world.

00:04:34: What did i do?

00:04:35: To contribute to society or what do find fulfilling in my personal life?

00:04:40: and that's what I've been doing in academia... ...and with kids.

00:04:44: so there is a connection if you

00:04:46: will.

00:04:47: Okay yeah!

00:04:48: So looking back.. ..how did it come?

00:04:50: your started a PhD ?

00:04:52: I got the chance !

00:04:54: I thought, oh that's a cool thing to do.

00:04:59: I was sure that i did not want to have a job within university as a, uh vissen schafelechierivskrad.

00:05:29: I used to be but Uh...I thought okay what is it?

00:05:33: How do you wanna finance myself and I get the stipend from them?

00:05:37: Okay!

00:05:38: And there were basically the point where he said ok when-when I got this.. ..i will do it.

00:05:42: if don't get it we'll think about something else.

00:05:45: and It worked out mm-hmm.

00:05:46: so yeah.

00:05:47: So That Was The Chance.

00:05:49: I asked my supervisor If

00:05:50: He Would

00:05:50: Be My Supervisor.

00:05:51: You Said Yes

00:05:52: Okay, so the topic of your dissertation is closely connected to Bielefeld University.

00:05:58: How did it come that you chose this topic?

00:06:00: That's a very hard question actually because I talked about it with Thomas Weltskopf Because by chance some years back or way Back i found a text little compendium about Bielefeld University and what sort of influence it had on the intellectual sphere of Western Germany in post-World War II era.

00:06:27: And I found that quite fascinating, interesting!

00:06:32: Also it has a bit of humorous touch to it – former students at Bielefeld University were reflecting their experiences here And I thought, well that's kind of cool and interesting.

00:06:45: Let's see where this goes!

00:06:48: Also by chance i wrote my master thesis on Shelsky his views how he came to be a funding member at Bielefeld University in the Faculty of Sociology While I was figuring out, trying to figure it okay.

00:07:04: Do i want do a PhD or not?

00:07:06: But I had various other topics that were sort of spinning around in my head and reading different stuff about innovation... Other things but just didn't really work out.

00:07:17: you know Just didn't feel connected with me personally.

00:07:20: And when I decided actually this Shelsky fella he's controversial and he's interesting, there is not much stuff about him.

00:07:31: Why?

00:07:32: There have been some publications of late but Still, he's sort of a forgotten figure.

00:07:40: And that is... There was the tension between the big Niklas Luhmann-Bielefeld University history and how they left their mark on the intellectual sphere in Western Germany still up to today I would say there is an aura surrounding this place but The Founder – the giver basically of course, Nazi past left out a picture and that I found quite interesting actually.

00:08:14: Yeah it was captured by his upbringing or story

00:08:19: thought yeah and

00:08:20: that's why i felt okay this is an interesting topic.

00:08:24: what i've found so far.

00:08:26: in my hypothesis he is entirely self-reflective about his persona what he does and also I think that is sort of personal views on how science works, sociology or politics.

00:08:45: All those spheres studied by coincidence are connected in the person in a certain way.

00:09:00: I mean, he did a lot of things let's not forget.

00:09:02: but um and He was uh big popular author in the fifties But also in the let's say late seventies as a conservative sort of polemicist?

00:09:12: but still i think that The foundation or the reasons why he acted In a certain Way And the way he sort of presented himself and his ideas are Highly connected to is a role as an intellectual or professor in Germany

00:09:29: Yeah, and it was especially in the nineteen fifties.

00:09:32: It wasn't really a different world academic world back then than we have today or in the seventies or eighties?

00:09:44: Did that topic has an impact on how you feel about academia?

00:09:48: I don't

00:09:49: know

00:09:56: topic I like to work on and feel comfortable with, that's what i'm interested in.

00:10:01: Yeah let's just say no of course intellectual or research is never outside the social sphere you know?

00:10:13: You interact with people here at this building.

00:10:16: we talk to each other and interact with others who are working on similar topics.

00:10:24: During the PhD process, I think my perception of who i am and what I do in this sphere uh...in this world changed a little bit but not fundamentally.

00:10:37: Yeah there's one part.

00:10:39: um..I realized that you know academia is not sort-of distanced from the social sphere.

00:10:45: it's a competitive field And that has been something that was always felt Trying to not be part of.

00:10:57: you know, I like the intellectual game.

00:11:00: I liked colloquia and The discussion.

00:11:03: that's what i think is really fun And it is for me It's a stimulus You know To sort of understand the world then?

00:11:09: Its its fun taking part Of trying to figure out things in how Things work but at the same time the higher you get In the hierarchy of seeing the levels being on your way to A professor or whatever You feel that people are more aggressive, you know and using their elbows in a certain way.

00:11:27: And I'm not really interested in that it's something that i realized during my phd.

00:11:32: um...I mean if people want to go there they may..i'm not saying you shouldn't do it but for me personally- I like the discussion part and I liked the interaction and exchange But constantly being pressured too To publish articles to perform basically.

00:11:51: That's where I think, oh well no that is not my cup of tea!

00:11:55: Yeah yeah what i try do with my life...I like you know discussing the ideas or being in contact people so thats sort during the PhD when we decided it?

00:12:09: So You got funding from Kuzanusberg for three and a half years.

00:12:13: What did It feel Like When The Funding Ended And The Dissertation Wasn't Complete?

00:12:18: yet

00:12:20: regarding my financial situation, I wasn't surprised at all because i knew it would happen sooner or later.

00:12:26: And was happy that had the funding and they got sort of full time when possible At a different construction site to work on which sort of personal slash private life, because I moved from Bilofer to Warendorf where grew up my hometown.

00:12:46: And that was because the relationship that i had with My girlfriend back then ended.

00:12:50: there was this more problematic let's say or maybe not problematic but There was a change in my personal life and That Was something that I had to work on yeah Or figure out how To deal With it you know Because Life Goes On In You.

00:13:06: so The Financial Thing Wasn't Really First the focus, what I was focusing on.

00:13:11: I mean i knew it would end.

00:13:12: so and then I had to figure out okay how do I sort of proceed?

00:13:16: How where do I get money?

00:13:18: And that...I did!

00:13:19: The personal side has more effects on me.

00:13:23: This is true if a relationship ends life now going in different ways than you expected or wish for this.

00:13:31: also something happens between.

00:13:36: It's all entangled.

00:13:38: Yeah, yeah and I think it is important to talk about doing a PhD as the process that really very close entangled with life because its such long time And Its an important time

00:13:54: in

00:13:55: life where so many things

00:13:57: happen

00:13:59: And have to be decided and so on.

00:14:01: I think this is something that has been talked about.

00:14:06: How did you come into your current job?

00:14:11: It's a bit of funny story, it was in Varendorf my hometown... ...and i had couple months left for funding.

00:14:23: You know, I'm going to be unemployed soon.

00:14:25: Um...I used to have a stipend and still doing my PhD.

00:14:29: can you help me out?

00:14:30: And they said well okay we never had the situation that a Phd student is applying for jobs in our money but we couldn't sure..you could apply or get money But do you sort of work on this side?

00:14:44: So i was-for half year.

00:14:46: uh....i was being janitor actually.

00:14:48: so I cleaned sweeping floors cleaning the school where I'm right now, working right now.

00:14:57: And...I felt that job was okay.

00:15:01: it's not you know my regard.

00:15:03: green job!

00:15:04: Green

00:15:04: job no but i was content..i was working on my thesis and writing in the morning from eight to twelve o'clock and then ok had two pages.

00:15:13: thats good.

00:15:14: Then went into my job three hours a day.

00:15:16: I was cleaning the the school The classrooms everything Yeah, and then that ended.

00:15:23: And I was still receiving of course state funding.

00:15:28: but they said well you know... You have to apply for different jobs if you want to Still have a book again?

00:15:33: Then i did apply for various jobs But it wasn't invited Interview or it didn't work out.

00:15:46: And then this job offer from the Caritas came at school and they were looking for Schulbegleitern, because I... At that time already knew the headmaster of the school and just rang him up.

00:15:59: he said oh!

00:16:00: It's you?

00:16:01: Yeah sure drop by we can have an interview right now if you want.

00:16:05: so its quite comfortable actually cause i had fifteen minutes commute by bike, I ride my bike every morning and ride it back to town.

00:16:16: It's because the school is located a little bit outside of Wollendorf in The Boonies.

00:16:21: so i drove there and talked with him.

00:16:24: we sort-of felt sympathy towards each other.

00:16:28: that said well sure Simon you can start right now if you want And thats how got the job.

00:16:41: He's also a musician and sort of the, let's say... The little bit provincial alternative lifestyle is his thing.

00:16:52: I know people who grew up there so it was easy to get into the sphere or with the people you'd

00:17:00: say

00:17:01: And also with connection to Cusano Sveck which is Catholic channel through which money goes for for the people who are doing a PhD or the students were receiving a stipend.

00:17:14: I was also on the good side because Cusano's Caritas is the Catholic institutions and they sort of, you know?

00:17:19: You have this same feel in certain ways.

00:17:23: Yeah yeah yes!

00:17:24: And i know that...I also live in the small town where grew up and sometimes your missing something let's say in the intellectual sphere.

00:17:39: But on the other hand, you have connections to so many different people that perhaps wouldn't have a bigger town where you can choose who you meet and it is small-town.

00:17:51: well there are all of those people... ...that are there!

00:17:55: So we had to deal with them yeah?

00:17:59: That thing just mentioned I felt at first very much Because the only thing I have right now, having sort of the intellectual stimulus that i used to have constantly all the whole time is gone apart from my PhD and working by myself.

00:18:17: But the rest it's very nice!

00:18:19: How do you balance employment at work on your dissertation?

00:18:22: At first when doing the gender thing... ...I was working in the morning writing my text And then had a part let's say one-third maybe, I had finished and i send it to my supervisors.

00:18:40: And they said well this is good you just keep on going green light go!

00:18:46: It was feeling sort of relieved that the things I produced are good enough.

00:18:53: Then after I got the job because... The job right now its a completely different world.

00:19:02: noise that you have in the classroom is completely different to, working alone by yourself at a desk.

00:19:09: Yeah!

00:19:09: So right now I feel like or my goal is to be finished within the next three semesters –that's the thing–I've got do it now.

00:19:19: but though work amount on the PhD and on the text has gotten less and less due That's a thing.

00:19:30: It is not that I work full-time, but... ...I finance myself through this job and have to pay rent or food.

00:19:36: so certain amount of work is required in certain amounts hours But usually on the afternoon i try do it little bit And see how far can go.

00:19:48: Yes!

00:19:49: You mean you are working day?

00:19:52: at least some hours of a working day behind you and it's clear that your not as, y'know.

00:19:58: As fresh when you stand up go to the desk do thing.

00:20:03: That is situation right now but I'm not really... I would say not really troubled

00:20:07: or panicking?

00:20:09: Yeah!

00:20:10: And uh.. Do u still have fun doing ur PhD?

00:20:17: I love it.

00:20:18: Yeah, that's great because under these conditions It is not so easy to keep on going.

00:20:27: For me...I don't know Because when i was thinking about doing a PhD and had those different topics or things Or fields i was interested in And i chose the Shelsky one and got accepted.

00:20:45: That's my thing.

00:20:46: So that's where yeah, we're my heart lies if you will and it's actually I have to say It's the only thing that I really like right now in a sense of okay?

00:20:54: And that's what i'm interested.

00:20:55: Yeah, I mean there are other interesting things in the world But um yeah If I finish this is then though The phd the book the monography and sort of This.

00:21:08: Is it

00:21:08: yeah, so

00:21:10: I don't know

00:21:10: great.

00:21:11: Yeah, this is wonderful condition too.

00:21:15: really get it finished someday, even if it takes some more time than expected.

00:21:21: No but I like my current state of being because its nice...I never thought that would turn out great to.

00:21:30: you know what i do and the possibilities.

00:21:39: Nice time

00:21:39: right now.

00:21:41: Yeah, yeah your job seems to be quite rewarding Right?

00:21:46: It's cool.

00:21:46: the feedback you get and I mean The people i work with are quite nice.

00:21:51: There is no trouble on that side Of course the kids.

00:21:53: at times they're exhausting And they exhaust me But it's very very rewarding.

00:22:01: I like what im doing.

00:22:04: Yeah, is there any kind of support you'd wish for in your current situation?

00:22:08: Could you think of something where you think well that would be nice to have?

00:22:13: I mean except from money or Something like

00:22:18: that.

00:22:19: We already discussed the fact.

00:22:21: living a smaller town That's not university city has its flaws and people who live here are interested in avant-garde

00:22:34: thought,

00:22:35: let's just say.

00:22:36: Most of them are not yeah.

00:22:38: so I mean they're nice people but at times i do miss the lack of discussion.

00:22:48: that's a thing that i'd wish for more and regularly, but at times I come to Budefort and see old friends.

00:22:56: And we talk...and it's always very nice to listen them just being exchanged.

00:23:05: Yeah that is something i'd like a little bit more.

00:23:08: Just couple of people in my town where I'd say, okay let's discuss this or it doesn't have to be on the PhD but just like on general topics about the world and what you know makes us tick.

00:23:24: that would be nice.

00:23:24: But apart from that i don't read any...I feel very at ease.

00:23:31: Okay is there something you would have done differently from todays perspective in the process?

00:23:38: You mean starting with having the idea that I wanted to do a PhD and then from... In general, in my life starting school.

00:23:49: Yeah!

00:23:49: I don't know.

00:23:51: It's perhaps it is a stupid question because you are so satisfied with your situation?

00:24:00: So if there isn´t anything-

00:24:02: No actually no..I would say i have had experiences where felt uncomfortable or sad.

00:24:10: what am I doing here?

00:24:11: But in general, no.

00:24:14: I wouldn't do anything different i would say because if I look back on it...I think- I took the decisions and thought about them then just did that.

00:24:24: yeah What occurred to me at the time was being the most sensible thing to do And even when they didn't work out When I started my PhD thinking of it..and had various projects.

00:24:39: It was another topic.

00:24:41: I don't know where that would have

00:24:42: gotten

00:24:43: me.

00:24:43: so No, um no really?

00:24:46: I wouldn't do anything different.

00:24:48: I would say

00:24:49: This is great

00:24:50: mm-hmm.

00:24:51: okay

00:24:51: yeah

00:24:52: Yeah, it's lucky as a thing.

00:24:54: Yeah Is there any advice you would give to doctor researchers in the similar situation?

00:25:00: Have to make it little disclaimer with say right now because So the things i'm not really Interested in earning lots and lots of money.

00:25:09: Yeah, also I'm not really interested in having Lots of material stuff.

00:25:15: That's not what sort of satisfies me.

00:25:18: And so I am from my perspective.

00:25:20: if i can say maybe just relax?

00:25:23: Just do your thing.

00:25:24: be yourself and you know listen to yourself.

00:25:26: then You have to take decisions.

00:25:29: Take them and don't regretful about it.

00:25:32: That's basically it.

00:25:33: You know, but if you want to sort of compete and make a lot of money then I don't have any advice at all.

00:25:41: On the on this side of trying to be content with yourself i would say yeah just You live in western Germany or in germany in general?

00:25:53: In europe.

00:25:55: So it's pretty safe.

00:25:56: your not gonna get...you're not going to live on the streets usually.

00:26:00: Nothing is gonna happen to you And if it doesn't work out the first time, there are other ways to get sort of... ...to the place where you want be.

00:26:15: If one door closes another will open up.

00:26:17: that's how it is.

00:26:18: Yeah

00:26:20: I'm an optimist i have to say but its also more fun i think.

00:26:24: Although i have said looking at society right now Im just thinking maybe im should be more pessimistic.

00:26:32: Yeah, but there are lots of people who are pessimistic at the moment.

00:26:35: So we need optimists I think and i'm one of that sort as well.

00:26:42: Okay yeah dear Zimon thank you so much for sharing your experiences!

00:26:47: I wish you all the best for the future.

00:26:50: Thank you...thank you for having me..Thank You For The Talk And The Invitation.

00:26:53: I am really grateful that Zimon gave these insights in his situation & experiences.

00:26:58: You see that having to look for new funding is challenging, but not the end of the world.

00:27:03: On the contrary – it can very well help find a new fulfilling way.

00:27:23: And as always, we'd like to hear about your thoughts.

00:27:27: If you have any questions comments or suggestions for future topics send us an email at bghsatuni-bielefeldt.de.

00:27:37: Thank You For Tuning In and until next time Optimism!

00:27:41: Have faith in yourself make the best of chances & challenges on academic journey.