Quitting the PhD

00:00:13: Welcome to today's episode of Chances and Challenges, the BGHS podcast.

00:00:15: I'm your host, Sabine Schäfer.

00:00:18: Today, we are dealing with a somewhat delicate topic of graduate training, that is, quitting the PhD.

00:00:25: Not to finish the PhD is sometimes seen as a failure.

00:00:29: I'd like to put it in a different way, though.

00:00:31: Quitting the PhD can very well be a most thoughtful and reasonable decision.

00:00:37: If we're looking at the BGHS, we see that about twenty-eight percent of BGHS members don't complete their dissertations in the BGHS for different reasons.

00:00:46: We can sort them roughly into three groups.

00:00:50: A small group of doctoral researchers leaves Bielefeld University and the BGHS to complete the PhD at a different university.

00:00:58: Perhaps the supervisor changes the university and takes the doctoral researcher with them, or the doctoral researcher themselves get a job at a different university and continue the PhD there.

00:01:10: Another group never really starts the PhD.

00:01:12: They apply for a study place in the doctoral program and are admitted by the doctoral committee of the faculty.

00:01:19: But maybe they don't get funding for the PhD or they get a job outside university and so... Actually, they don't really start doing the research.

00:01:28: This is also a rather small group.

00:01:31: The people of the largest group, however, quit doing the PhD at some point in the doctoral process.

00:01:38: Again, there are very different reasons for that.

00:01:41: Perhaps the PhD funding comes to an end and they start to work elsewhere, or doing research or the topic itself don't seem to make sense to them any longer.

00:01:50: And this is the group today's episode of chances and challenges is mainly dealing with.

00:01:56: And I have a guest who's kind of an expert in this topic because she's done it herself.

00:02:01: Marisa Matis, a former member of the BGHS, who's willing to share her experiences with the quitting process, as I will call it.

00:02:09: Hello, Marisa.

00:02:10: Thanks for being here.

00:02:11: Hi, Sofina.

00:02:12: Thanks for having me.

00:02:14: Marisa started the PhD about four years ago and she managed to get a scholarship of the Hans-Böckler Foundation.

00:02:21: Quite recently, she quit the PhD at Bielefeld University and started to work in the international office at the University of Siegen.

00:02:29: Marisa, what exactly is your job in Siegen?

00:02:33: Yeah, so my job is to take care of international students, so to say.

00:02:38: The exchange students that go to Siegen, they have to go for a very bureaucratic process, and that's why I'm there for them.

00:02:48: So before they arrive, we plan also events for our orientation.

00:02:55: We also help them find a place to stay or some documents, like also with Auslan that we heard them.

00:03:03: Exchange.

00:03:07: Yeah, the office for... Immigrants, I guess.

00:03:13: We have to do a lot with visa.

00:03:16: So everything that involves exchange students here.

00:03:20: That's what I do.

00:03:21: Okay.

00:03:22: Yeah.

00:03:22: Thank you.

00:03:23: So when you look back some four years, how did it come that you started the PhD?

00:03:29: Yeah, I guess so.

00:03:30: Because my motives were a bit different from most people because I wanted to come to Germany.

00:03:39: That was my main goal.

00:03:41: And I did my masters in Brazil, where I come from, and it was quite good.

00:03:48: I have to say it wasn't very research focused, because my background is economics also, so it was more analysis, more economic analysis, and that's what I really like doing.

00:04:02: But I want to come to Germany and I thought the best way or the easiest way, many, many, it was to do a PhD because, yeah, that was my thought back then.

00:04:16: And I have to say that I come from an academic family.

00:04:19: So I thought, okay, yeah, that's my path, so to say.

00:04:24: So I started researching PhDs in Germany.

00:04:27: I also applied for some positions in economics and then I start to think what I want to research about and then I want to do something with gender studies and then I start researching literally gender studies Germany.

00:04:45: research, something like that.

00:04:46: And then Benefest came up.

00:04:48: Okay.

00:04:49: Because they just started a new research project at TIFF, the global consultations of women's and gender rights or something like that.

00:04:57: Yeah.

00:04:58: Where my former supervisor was a PI.

00:05:01: And I went there.

00:05:03: I bought a ticket, a one-way ticket to Germany.

00:05:05: That was twenty-twenty.

00:05:07: Like, pandemic was still like, well, what is it?

00:05:11: And then I bought a ticket here and then I went there and then I introduced myself and then I asked her if she could supervise me.

00:05:18: She was like, yeah, we can talk about it.

00:05:20: She never had a super, um, a PhD students before.

00:05:23: Okay.

00:05:23: Yeah.

00:05:24: So it was very nice.

00:05:25: We, um, I went in contact and I sent my project to her and she reviewed.

00:05:30: And then we had a lot of Zoom meetings by then because that was already twenty twenty one, beginning after twenty one and we were in lockdown.

00:05:38: And yeah, and then she accept me and then I apply for bigger house and then I. Was also accepted in twenty twenty one October twenty twenty one.

00:05:46: I was like, okay, I'm doing my PhD yet now.

00:05:49: Okay.

00:05:51: Yeah, this is really quite unusual.

00:05:53: Yeah, but I guess that's also explains why I am not doing PhD anymore.

00:06:04: Yeah.

00:06:04: Yeah.

00:06:05: And when you when you started your PhD.

00:06:08: You also started to find the funding, right?

00:06:10: Yes.

00:06:10: So there was also something unusual because, well, I didn't have any funding.

00:06:15: I didn't have a position.

00:06:16: And I really didn't know how this works because in Brazil, you mostly do with a scholarship.

00:06:22: So I didn't really know that it was this option of working here.

00:06:27: But anyway, so I started working outside of the university.

00:06:30: And that didn't give me much time of doing my first year.

00:06:34: I was just doing some... courses, seminars, and I was not leaving Bielefed also.

00:06:41: It was a very complex, a lot of things going on this first year.

00:06:46: So I had to commute to Bielefed and then I was not making too much money.

00:06:52: So the, yeah, situation was not ideal.

00:06:55: And that's why I applied for my scholarship one year later.

00:06:58: I actually applied in the middle of the year, but the process takes a while and I had to also do some changes on my project.

00:07:10: And then finally, I actually in October, I got a scholarship from the university for five or six months, the COVID.

00:07:18: Yeah.

00:07:19: And then while I was having this, I got my office here.

00:07:23: And then that's why I really started because I moved to BFN.

00:07:26: And then I really started working here on my project, so to say.

00:07:31: And then one year later, in October, I got my husband.

00:07:35: And then I was like, yeah, now I'm doing this.

00:07:44: Yeah.

00:07:45: Yeah.

00:07:45: But then, well, I did.

00:07:47: I had fun with other parts of the PhD process, not the research itself.

00:07:53: Yeah.

00:07:54: So when did you first get doubts about doing the PhD?

00:07:59: To be honest, I always had doubts.

00:08:01: Okay, yeah, that was not because that's what I said.

00:08:03: My goal was to be in Germany was not really to have a doctor title or something and nor was not my.

00:08:10: I really wanted like when I see my career I really wanted to to be a professor because as I say my parents are professor and I really like this part of the university job, so to say.

00:08:22: but research was never my thing.

00:08:25: and I'm sure if because I was come from an economics background, and then I was in sociology, and that was also kind of challenging for me.

00:08:35: Because, well, it was my second language, it was another topic, it was another country, there was so many things going on, and I always had this doubt, but I always thought, okay, but my goal is to be a professor, so I'm gonna stay.

00:08:50: And then I realized how hard it is to be a professor in Germany.

00:08:54: So I started like rethinking what was my idea because I was like, okay, to be a professor here, you have to do your habilitation, which is another research after four years of research.

00:09:06: And I was like, well, not sure

00:09:08: if

00:09:09: I'm really sure I don't want to do that.

00:09:11: So I started like, okay, so what can I do to... not do this PhD or like what were my alternatives?

00:09:20: that don't that I do not have necessarily to have a PhD.

00:09:25: And then I guess also was when I realized that in Germany, you don't need have a need to have to have a PhD to have a good job or to work in a shift on an institution or a nonprofit institution or at universities also as I don't know member of the the the administration, also at the faculties, depending on what your tasks are.

00:09:51: And I was like, hmm, well, now you're talking, now I am, I am seeing a way out of this.

00:10:00: And also what really helped was that I was very engaged in other activities at the university and not in the research.

00:10:08: So as a doctor's representative of Big I S, I I started doing other activities and texts.

00:10:15: that was really, really, really much, much more fun for me.

00:10:20: And when I started thinking more seriously about quitting, I started searching for jobs.

00:10:28: And then I saw jobs that I could do.

00:10:29: that was really close to what I did as a doctor representative.

00:10:34: And I was, oh.

00:10:35: that's a possibility for me then because well I'm telling the story as was this line it wasn't.

00:10:43: there was times that I was like I'm quitting this I cannot do this anymore.

00:10:47: and there was days that I was like no this is my goal.

00:10:50: I wanted to be here and then there was very ups and downs.

00:10:54: there was days that I really oh this makes sense I really like doing this.

00:10:59: there was days that I was like okay I cannot do this anymore.

00:11:02: so it was Yeah, a super struggle process and I was in doubt and I talked a lot about with my friends, which was very nice.

00:11:15: Yeah, that's my question.

00:11:16: Who supported you in this quitting process?

00:11:18: Yeah, most of my friends, which is also, I have to explain, most of my friends I did in the university.

00:11:25: And all my support group comes from here, so I was also struggling with that.

00:11:30: the idea that I wouldn't have them every day because when you are especially here in Big Ahayas we I shared office with my friends and we had lunch every day and I met my partner at the Big Ahayas.

00:11:43: so it was everything my life was here literally and that was one of my main struggles like how to this identity as academic will impact in my personal relationships, which was very, very, very strongly connected with the university.

00:12:02: And then I talked to them about it.

00:12:05: I was like, one part of me is quite sure that this is not my way, but the other part is quite scared because that's all I know in Germany, actually.

00:12:15: And they were very supportive and very... They assured me that this wasn't going to change our friendship or how they see me.

00:12:29: Because I think this is very quite a thing.

00:12:32: Like when you are in academic, your identity is very much, how can you say, shared in this environment and you kind of doubt yourself.

00:12:45: Not what we do, who am I without those people?

00:12:48: We will be friends if I'm not here.

00:12:51: Yeah, yeah.

00:12:52: Yeah, I can imagine.

00:12:53: This is a hard

00:12:54: struggle.

00:12:54: Yeah.

00:12:55: Yeah.

00:12:55: And then, but what I did, I guess I started like a little bit slowly.

00:13:00: I was here before every day.

00:13:01: And then I was like three times a week, eight times a week.

00:13:06: And to see like, I mean, I don't know, but for some people, a cut must be like very.

00:13:13: sharp and then you just oh yeah to them here to them not here but for me I needed some time to

00:13:18: yeah

00:13:19: to um yeah understand this idea and to us yeah.

00:13:23: and then I yeah.

00:13:25: and then I started talking to my friends and then we were.

00:13:29: they were saying like that I should that I shouldn't worry about it that they would also support me a lot.

00:13:36: and then I talked to my parents which was a very also um hard um part because well they were not very supportive because they were for them is quite um as I said obviously you would finish this you know.

00:13:52: and but then I was like yeah sorry it's not my thing but then we like of course they saw that I wasn't having to make no sense to continue something that was not make me happy but was very hard I have to admit that was the hottest part I guess.

00:14:08: Yeah, so you were really a bit between the chairs, let's say.

00:14:16: And how did you proceed with this decision making?

00:14:20: As I said, it was slow, very slow.

00:14:22: I actually decided at the beginning of last year, I guess.

00:14:29: Oh, yeah, I mean, the idea came in the beginning of the year, but as I said, this ups and downs, I want to do it, I don't want to do it.

00:14:38: And then I started looking for jobs very slowly to see what was there and how would I go in my first interviews also.

00:14:49: Well, because German is not my first language and I had to do everything German.

00:14:55: It was quite a process of, okay, so I'm doing this, I have to have a plan.

00:14:59: So I started also doing more German classes here at the university.

00:15:04: Not really like the courses, but also like writing, academic writing in German.

00:15:11: Some things that will make me more prepared, so to say for this.

00:15:17: And then I started going to interviews.

00:15:20: And I was like, hmm, okay, that was not too good.

00:15:22: But I mean, I'm being called for interviews.

00:15:25: So I started like going, being more confident in the process too, but I still apply for the, I still renovate, not renovate, but my semester for the summer.

00:15:36: I couldn't, I couldn't just leave.

00:15:38: I was like, I wasn't here anymore in the summer semester.

00:15:41: I wasn't not working on my project, but I couldn't just leave the university.

00:15:45: So, so you were still,

00:15:48: you were still enrolled.

00:15:49: I was

00:15:50: still enrolled in the summer semester, but I was mainly doing the German course, as I said, and buying for jobs.

00:15:57: But I still like to have this as a, I don't know, safe point or something.

00:16:02: And yeah, and then I finally got my job in the middle of summer also.

00:16:10: And in the winter semester, actually, I just, just now for two months, yeah, I Didn't enroll back in wasn't so hard.

00:16:19: I don't know.

00:16:20: I was already working and then I have to ask for my ex matriculation.

00:16:24: I was like, oh, I couldn't do it.

00:16:26: I was like, oh, I need this so weird because yeah, it was Very most of my time in Germany.

00:16:32: I was here in this university.

00:16:35: It was really like a like a cut.

00:16:37: Yeah, it was like a breakup.

00:16:39: I don't know.

00:16:39: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:42: Yeah, I can imagine that this is hard if you stick so close to the people here at the university.

00:16:49: I mean for us Germans, it's a bit different because we have all people here, but you.

00:16:54: got the people in Germany, you got to know here at the university.

00:17:00: And yeah, so this was not only university, but also kind of life.

00:17:05: Yeah, it's still, it's still Many of part of my life as well.

00:17:09: my best friends are still here and I still.

00:17:12: I mean I am connected but not too much so but they if they tell me something or something happened.

00:17:17: blah blah blah or you know remember this this and this.

00:17:20: I can still relate it but not related anymore because this everyday part of the the university.

00:17:27: I'm not here anymore, but if you are thinking about quitting I can just say that friends they are their thing and then we We keep our, although I changed cities actually, but I still have here, BiliFed, as my main point.

00:17:43: Yeah.

00:17:44: But I mean, a lot of people are living like that.

00:17:46: Yeah.

00:17:47: So a lot of people are commuting and so on.

00:17:51: So this is a very normal thing in life.

00:17:55: Yeah.

00:17:55: And Germany is a quite small country too.

00:17:57: Commute.

00:17:58: It's not like Brazil.

00:18:00: So everything's fine.

00:18:01: That's

00:18:04: right.

00:18:05: Yeah.

00:18:06: Looking back at this complete process, what did you learn about yourself?

00:18:14: That's a very interesting and important question because I guess the whole process was a learning process.

00:18:22: And I learned to really look at what I wanted and how I wanted things and not to look at what other people were thinking.

00:18:36: because this whole PhD thing and being a PhD student, there is some status behind it.

00:18:42: And it's also hard to, was for me a little bit hard to try to make people understand why I didn't want to be this anymore, or maybe to convince people that this might be not my thing.

00:18:57: And it's not because it's wrong, it's just because it's not mine.

00:19:01: And also, It was very important for me to learn that it's never too late because I was quite in the middle, also face of my PhD and I also thought about, okay, I also wrote something.

00:19:17: I already did my interviews.

00:19:21: Leave everything behind but it's not I didn't leave anything behind this whole four years here.

00:19:27: I learned a lot as not only academic but also a professional like personally.

00:19:33: Growth I also had.

00:19:35: so this also I. take with me, whatever, whenever I go.

00:19:41: So it's not a waste of

00:19:42: time?

00:19:42: No, not at all.

00:19:43: Not at all.

00:19:44: Here, I mean, I present my research as some research class.

00:19:48: I present my research in German in some Hans Boecker meetings.

00:19:53: So this also brings... taught me a lot.

00:19:56: and then I was.

00:19:58: I had this role as doctor representative so I had to learn how to speak with groups of people or different groups of people and that's really helped in my job also now because I had very different groups of students that I had to take care for.

00:20:14: and yeah so

00:20:16: yeah yeah well I think this is a kind of a relief, right?

00:20:20: Yeah, of course.

00:20:21: I guess when I look back, when I was in the middle of the storm, so to say, I had very hard time trying to picture this moment right now where everything is like, yeah, I got the job and then I'm not at the invest anymore and everything's fine.

00:20:41: And it was very hard for me to picture this time, but well, now.

00:20:46: It's here and then you see that all the the struggle was, yeah, not worth it because I don't think any struggle is worth it but it was, it made, it had, it makes sense now.

00:20:59: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:00: So what you need is that you develop a new vision for your life in a way.

00:21:06: Yes, you have to really understand what you like and what you don't like and what you want to do and where do you see yourself doing every day?

00:21:14: because this is very important and if it is something that is not so procedural as a PhD you have to go for it.

00:21:24: and then don't don't don't listen to people like oh you're in academic academia and blah blah blah.

00:21:30: yeah it's it's not for everyone.

00:21:32: yeah that's also where I learned too.

00:21:34: it's not for everyone and it's okay and it doesn't mean that you're worthless than those people.

00:21:40: Yeah,

00:21:41: it's not a failure or something like that, but it's a process and it's a learning process and everything and it simply takes a Different path.

00:21:50: Yeah.

00:21:50: And I think that's very normal that people with some people like straight, um, after the master knows that they want to do it, but there's some people who want to experiment something.

00:22:00: I never had, I have never worked with international students before.

00:22:04: So how would I know that I want to work with those kind of, uh, group with those groups?

00:22:09: How I was always in one bubble and how can I know that was like the other bubble was much more interesting

00:22:17: for me.

00:22:18: Yeah, my experience is the other way around.

00:22:21: So to say, I never had any funding for my PhD.

00:22:24: Well, it's really a lot of years ago, but I never had any funding.

00:22:29: So I worked at university, but rather in science management.

00:22:34: And there were times and also outside of university.

00:22:37: And there were times when I when I had the offer to have a job.

00:22:44: And I really thought about, and this was not a fixed term job, but it was really a job for life.

00:22:52: And I really thought about that and I decided differently because I knew if I take the job outside university, I would not be able to finish my PhD and I really wanted that.

00:23:05: So this was quite the other way around, but both ways are valuable and both ways can simply be right for the person.

00:23:16: Yes.

00:23:17: Yeah.

00:23:18: And I never, I don't say I will never do my PhD anymore.

00:23:22: I mean, I don't know.

00:23:23: I thought one and a half years ago, I didn't expect to be in Ziegen working with international students.

00:23:30: And I don't know how life would be in two years or three years.

00:23:35: What I know is that at this decision, I had to make now.

00:23:38: It makes sense now.

00:23:39: And I cannot just not do it because someone like people are saying, oh, you have to continue.

00:23:46: Yeah, this is the path you have to go.

00:23:48: This is the right path or not.

00:23:50: So, yeah.

00:23:51: Yeah.

00:23:51: Yeah.

00:23:52: Yeah.

00:23:52: This is, uh, this is an issue all the time, I think, because people have the idea that a career goes in a straight way up.

00:24:04: Yeah, you start at some point and it goes straight away up.

00:24:08: But most careers don't work like that.

00:24:11: They are going in circles.

00:24:13: And you know, so you follow a path and there are a lot of options.

00:24:19: Yes, there are also obstacles, but there are also a lot of options.

00:24:23: And it is always a question which option option you take and which option you don't take.

00:24:29: Yeah.

00:24:30: What is what most.

00:24:32: make more sense for you in the moment or not.

00:24:35: And I think this is also one lesson about life.

00:24:39: Everything you won't have.

00:24:40: I mean, everything you cannot have.

00:24:43: And sometimes it's about making choices and decisions that, yeah, they have to make sense for you because that's the life you are living.

00:24:52: And then I just couldn't just try to adjust for something that it wasn't for me.

00:25:00: Perhaps it was also the topic of the dissertation or the way to work on that or something like that.

00:25:06: And perhaps you find something else.

00:25:08: Yeah, I guess, um, this, um, different background, I guess, um, and different, uh, discipline was, uh, was also, I didn't, uh, thought that in the beginning, um, but it was really a point that I was really struggling because, well, I learned some, uh, something differently.

00:25:26: And then that's, yeah, to learn, uh, to.

00:25:30: D-Learn, it's what you say.

00:25:31: It was kind of a struggle.

00:25:34: And for me, some things really didn't make sense, because I knew it in another way, and I wanted to keep it that way, but this wasn't the way to sociologists, maybe.

00:25:45: Yeah, it is the different disciplinary cultures, but also the different national science culture.

00:25:53: And so you had to deal with a lot of issues.

00:25:56: Yeah, and new things.

00:25:57: And sometimes Yeah, some people might learn easily and fast, but for other people, especially I guess international researchers, so you come here and then you have to learn a new language, and then you have to do your research in a different language, and a new country, new people, a new educational system.

00:26:20: And yeah, it was a lot.

00:26:23: But yeah, it's never, it's never lost learning.

00:26:26: That's for sure.

00:26:27: It's something that you really, you take for, yeah, you take for your life and then you choose what you do with what you learn.

00:26:34: Yeah.

00:26:35: Yeah.

00:26:35: Right.

00:26:36: Right.

00:26:37: So what would you recommend to someone who has doubts about continuing the PhD?

00:26:43: Yeah, I would definitely recommend that you look to yourself and not try to.

00:26:50: close a little bit for what people are saying and then really look and be honest with you like this is why you why are you doing this?

00:26:58: for this is really for you because you really believe in your project or in your career path and this is and regardless the difficulties you would do it.

00:27:08: yeah I mean or you're doing this just because you started.

00:27:12: then you have to go to the end and at the beginning can be very hard but don't don't let go.

00:27:19: I mean if you really don't want to do it then just yeah go for it and then it's not gonna be your first job interview that you're gonna find a job.

00:27:30: Not every day is gonna be easy but if this is the real or the right decision for you then you just have to Believe in it and then go for it and really try to focus on yourself and not really Listen to the outside.

00:27:47: Yeah.

00:27:48: Yeah, and anyway, you have to accept that there are ups and downs.

00:27:51: Yeah, this is life.

00:27:52: This

00:27:52: is life and Sometimes it's not.

00:27:56: the first job you're gonna get is not it's not gonna be the best job of your life or the dream job, but it's a. Yeah, it's a way for the path that you want to go.

00:28:06: And if the PG is not this path, I mean, because for me, it didn't make sense to finish this and then find a job because I knew this wasn't my path.

00:28:18: Yeah.

00:28:19: So for me, it was like, okay, so I still stick with it for two more years and then I have to go through this journey again.

00:28:27: So yeah, I mean, just ask yourself, okay, if I'm finishing, then what would I do?

00:28:32: Would you like?

00:28:33: go for an NGO and do a job that didn't require a PhD in the first place.

00:28:39: Yeah.

00:28:40: Yeah.

00:28:41: Okay.

00:28:42: Dear Marisa, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and giving insights into your own quitting process.

00:28:49: I wish you all the best for the future.

00:28:51: And I'm absolutely convinced that you will find a very, very good way.

00:28:56: Thank you.

00:28:57: And I hope I helped.

00:28:59: Thank you very much.

00:29:01: No

00:29:02: doubt.

00:29:02: No doubt.

00:29:03: Thanks a lot.

00:29:05: Thank you.

00:29:06: For me, it was great to talk to Marisa and I hope you liked it as much.

00:29:10: I think Marisa showed very impressively that quitting the PhD might be a good thing if you realize that doing a PhD doesn't satisfy or make you happy.

00:29:21: And I think she gave some real good advice.

00:29:23: If you have doubts about continuing the PhD.

00:29:26: Have a deep look inside and try to find out why you're doing it.

00:29:31: Look out for good friends or other people to reflect the doubts and help you get through the struggle.

00:29:37: And don't worry, your friends and family will still love you if with or without a PhD.

00:29:43: If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with your colleagues and friends.

00:29:47: And as always, we'd like to hear about your thoughts.

00:29:50: If you have any questions, comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at bghs.uni.bielefeld.de.

00:30:00: Thank you for tuning in and until next time, optimism.

00:30:04: Have faith in yourself and make the best of the chances and challenges on your academic journey.