Academic self-government during PhD

00:00:12: Hello and welcome to today's episode of Chances and Challenges, the BGHS podcast.

00:00:15: I'm your host, Sabine Schäfer.

00:00:17: Today, we're dealing with a topic that many researchers find rather annoying or even a waste of time in everyday business, academic self-government.

00:00:26: This is all the committees and functions at the different levels of university that run the steering and decision-making procedures.

00:00:34: In fact, I think it's an important feature of German universities.

00:00:38: And from my perspective, it's an achievement that deserves more attention and also appreciation.

00:00:44: And I want to talk about this topic with Oliver Flügel-Martensen, professor of political theory at the Faculty of Sociology here at Bielefeld University and also the faculty's dean at the moment.

00:00:57: Oliver, thank you for being here.

00:00:59: Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:01: We have three points on the list for our talk.

00:01:04: First, we'll talk about the significance of academic self-government for the academic institutions.

00:01:10: Second,

00:01:10: we discuss what participating in committees means for the academic career.

00:01:15: And since Oliver is an expert of political theory, we'll finally talk about the perspectives of theory of democracy on this topic.

00:01:24: But

00:01:24: I want to start with a rather personal question.

00:01:27: Oliver, what does it feel like to be the dean of this large faculty of sociology?

00:01:33: Oh, that's a good question to start with.

00:01:36: And a difficult one to answer.

00:01:38: Before I became dean, I imagined it as something that wouldn't let me any time to do any other things.

00:01:46: And in fact, a bit that is the case.

00:01:48: But it's also a very interesting job.

00:01:52: I think it's important that the dean of a faculty is in fact a professor and not a person from the outside, not a kind of administrative professional.

00:02:03: So that professor is still part of the faculty, still part of the university, and that it's only a temporary precision, that after a few years you're going back to be a normal member of the faculty.

00:02:19: I think we'll start with the first... That's the significance of academic self-government for academic institutions.

00:02:28: What role does this self-academic self-government play for the institutions?

00:02:33: Well, I think it's a highly underestimated thing.

00:02:37: that academic self-government, because on the one hand, you already mentioned that many of my colleagues think it's an annoying task.

00:02:45: So it's always hard to find persons to be elected in committees, in commissions, even to find someone who is willing to be dean of the faculty.

00:02:56: is a difficult task but I think it is absolutely important as I already mentioned that we are doing that by ourselves and I think that is a very important feature of German universities because it enables us to make our own decisions in contrast to decisions made by the administrations or made by the political sphere and we are able to make our own decisions and that is a huge amount of autonomy for a faculty and for a university as an institution.

00:03:29: Yeah, and we have these very, very different levels at universities.

00:03:34: So starting with the Rectorate at the top of the university, but it really goes down to the faculties and even to institutions like the BGHS as well, where we also have some committees where we also govern ourselves, let's say.

00:03:53: Yeah, and I think the thing is simply, even if it's difficult to find persons to do that job, I think when you do that job, you experience in a way how important it is and that you have a certain autonomy to make decisions.

00:04:08: You can influence things and you do not depend completely on what others decide, even if it sometimes feels like that, for example, if the budget is reduced, like it is right now the case, you have the impression you can't do much.

00:04:26: But in fact, it's your decision, what you want to do with that new situation.

00:04:31: And I think that is really important that you have this kind of autonomy and independence here.

00:04:37: Yeah, so you don't think that it is a waste of time or something like that, like other people do?

00:04:43: No, no, I think it's.

00:04:46: it's really.

00:04:47: it's really important that it's not a bureaucratic or administrative hierarchy that makes the decisions, but that it's the faculties that is the other levels that you mentioned, like the BCHS, and we have other institutions like institutes, for example, research institutes, where we have the same administrative structure.

00:05:07: that is a kind of academic self-government and not a professional bureaucratic structure.

00:05:13: And I think that is really important because it's a kind of a democratic feature.

00:05:17: to put it in an emphatic way.

00:05:20: You can say that's the result of emancipatory political movements during the sixties and the seventies.

00:05:28: They fought for this kind of academic self-government and it's also important that The decisions are not only the decisions of professors, but the decisions also of other status groups, like doctoral students, like postdoctoral researchers, and also other persons.

00:05:49: Administrative stuff is involved.

00:05:50: Students, a very huge group is involved in these decision-making processes.

00:05:55: And I think that's a very important feature of democracy within the institution of university.

00:06:02: Yeah, I think that's why I I said before that it is an achievement.

00:06:08: It's not an annoyance, but it's really an achievement that people afford for.

00:06:14: I think we have to put that a bit differently because if we imagine the situation where we wouldn't have this academic self-government any longer, it would be much worse.

00:06:26: So all our autonomy it would be gone and i think that's a very important point to see even if it is in your personal situation a bit annoying even if you have the impression i would rather spend my time on research or teaching or whatever it is.

00:06:45: the other way around, it would be horrible not to be able to influence our decision-making processes and the results, the outcome of these processes.

00:06:54: I would like to move to the second question.

00:06:56: What does it mean for academic careers?

00:06:59: So sometimes I hear from the doctoral researchers that they say, well, yeah, I think this is an important task somehow, but I have to do so much other things.

00:07:10: I have to write my dissertation and so on.

00:07:12: So I don't have time to do this right now.

00:07:15: But what would you say from your perspective as a professor?

00:07:19: Well, the first thing is I can very well understand the perception.

00:07:25: I can understand why people mostly on temporary positions think it's more important to spend their time on their own research.

00:07:34: But I think the other truth in that situation is that it is also a highly underestimated thing to participate in these structures of academic self-government because you get a better knowledge of the institution, which is important.

00:07:51: And you get better knowledge of other people, of colleagues, of professors in different situations.

00:07:57: And I don't want to say that it can guarantee you a career, but that's definitely not the case.

00:08:05: But having participated in these structures Is a kind of deficit in your professional career and on the other hand within the institution where you are employed.

00:08:15: It is also important for you to know these people to know the structures to understand how people and structures act what they are doing in which situation and they get you to know you better and maybe they consider you for next position and I think.

00:08:32: that is a very underestimated feature of academic self-government to get simply in touch with colleagues, with professors and other persons within the institution.

00:08:41: Yeah, I think both points that you mentioned are really important.

00:08:44: first getting to know the people and also getting to know how this institution works because a lot of people who are starting their PhD here I have the impression they really don't know how universities work.

00:09:01: Let's say I always think that this academic self-government is something like the belly of the university where everything is digested more or less.

00:09:11: And I think you have to know how this digestion works.

00:09:16: Yeah, but otherwise you remain a bit an outsider of the institutions.

00:09:21: You don't understand how university works and you are a bit in the position of someone who is not employed there, but who has a scholarship and is in a kind of outside position.

00:09:31: So it's really important to get the institution from the inside to understand the processes and to understand that is also an important feature, how academic careers work and are developed because that is very often discussed in this commissions and committees.

00:09:48: If you take, for example, appointment committees for professorships or something like that, to work there as a member of the committee is a very important experience for your own career in order to understand which features are appreciated and which are not.

00:10:05: Yeah.

00:10:05: And also to learn something about how to, you know, lead a committee, for example, how to moderate processes and so on.

00:10:14: So this is something that you also have to learn.

00:10:17: But most people are not naturals in this.

00:10:20: No.

00:10:21: And how to handle conflicts, how to be able to get out of a very difficult situation in a peaceful way, so to say, without giving up your interests.

00:10:33: Yeah.

00:10:34: So what would you recommend?

00:10:36: What would be a good committee to start with if somebody has no formal experience with this work in committees?

00:10:44: But if you are starting with this work, what would be a good committee to start with?

00:10:50: I think every committee is a good point to start.

00:10:53: That's what I would say in the first place.

00:10:55: Every committee is a good point to start.

00:10:56: But if you take the boards, for example, of the BGHS or the board of a faculty, what we call faculty conference here, these are very important committees.

00:11:06: So if you want to know the institution from its heart, then you have to go there.

00:11:10: But if you are interested in particular things, you can also go to other committees which are focused on teaching, on research.

00:11:20: on PhD programs, etc.

00:11:23: Yeah, yeah, I'm sometimes a bit, yeah, I wonder, because

00:11:28: we all

00:11:29: always have difficulties to find somebody for the doctoral committee.

00:11:33: So this committee that makes all the decisions concerning the PhD, and it's really hard to find people on the level of the doctoral researchers to do this.

00:11:46: I mean, it is a committee that carries a lot of work with it.

00:11:51: And so in a way, I can understand that people are hesitant.

00:11:55: But on the other hand, you are really able to make decisions

00:12:02: there.

00:12:02: You are really able to make decisions and you get to know the people who make the decisions.

00:12:07: that are also important for you because your contact with the doctoral committee does not end when becoming a doctoral student here at Bielefeld University, but there are other steps to take and I think it is important to know how these people decide and.

00:12:24: I think that's really important, but you are right.

00:12:26: That's in fact a committee that comes with a lot of work.

00:12:30: There are others which are easier.

00:12:33: Yeah, and also it's not so easy to talk about something like doctor regulations, for example.

00:12:40: So we just had this situation that all the doctor regulations are revised.

00:12:46: And so this is really looking into regulations.

00:12:52: in very much detail on so on.

00:12:55: But on the other hand, you learn a lot about it by doing this.

00:12:57: Yeah.

00:12:58: Yes.

00:12:59: And these are things that are very important for your own career, just to know how that works, to influence that, that might be important for your own dissertation as well.

00:13:09: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:13:11: Yeah, because the regulations are always adjusted to the needs, or should be adjusted to the needs of the doctoral researchers as well, not only to the needs of the faculties or the professors, but also to the doctoral researchers.

00:13:27: Yeah,

00:13:28: but I think it is important that doctoral students do bring in their own perspectives in these committees and in these processes because they aren't being ignored.

00:13:39: Ignored, I would say, but sometimes you just don't know what the perspective is of a doctoral student.

00:13:45: So doctoral students have to articulate their own perspectives within these processes and committees.

00:13:51: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:13:53: Then I think it would be nice to now move to the third part of this talk.

00:14:00: And this is the perspective or theory of democracy on this academic self-government.

00:14:05: So what is this perspective like from your point of view?

00:14:09: Well, as I've already mentioned, the fact that there is academic self-government at German universities is the result, the outcome of emancipatory student movements within the sixties and seventies of the twentieth century.

00:14:23: And its aim was to establish democratic structures at universities which where before that very very hierarchical institutions and they are still in many respects hierarchical the institutions.

00:14:39: but today the situation changed a bit.

00:14:43: so because with academic self-government there are at least some democratic possibilities some democratic features within these within that institution and within its procedures.

00:14:55: so I think it is really important to have this kind of democratic character of a university because democracy, I think, is not limited to the state and its institutions, but it does take place in many other institutions and universities are very important institutions here.

00:15:16: What do you think?

00:15:17: What would change if we had a system like in the US or the UK where you have managers more or less doing all this?

00:15:26: these these leading positions like deans or or presidents or something like that.

00:15:32: Within such a system, we couldn't have any influence any longer.

00:15:36: And I think that would be a very huge problem for us.

00:15:39: Because in that situation, you it's simply not democratic decision making.

00:15:44: And you get all these structures, all the things you have to follow from the outside.

00:15:50: And I think it's important that we can decide that on our own.

00:15:53: Yeah.

00:15:54: Yeah.

00:15:55: I know universities where they weren't able to find somebody, for example, as a president or as a rector from their own staff.

00:16:04: So they took somebody from outside.

00:16:08: And the problem really was that these people don't know the university.

00:16:13: And that brings problems.

00:16:15: So what is your... perspective on that?

00:16:18: Well, as I already mentioned before, it's also an epistemological problem.

00:16:23: It's not.

00:16:24: if you do not come from the inside, you are not aware of the perspectives of academics on different levels.

00:16:32: And so it's important also to have.

00:16:34: the representation of different groups is very important, because they do have different perspectives, different positions, different interests.

00:16:43: And it is, I think, impossible to anticipate all these different perspectives.

00:16:48: So there has to be a possibility that they bring these positions and these perspectives into these processes on their own.

00:16:57: And I think that is guaranteed by that form of academic self-government.

00:17:03: Yeah.

00:17:04: And also, it's not only that they bring in their perspectives into the committees or into the functions, but also when they go back again.

00:17:14: being a normal professor, then you have experiences from this position.

00:17:21: I mean, you bring the experiences from the committee also in your work.

00:17:26: It's easier to understand what it means to be dealing with all these numbers and statistics.

00:17:33: you have to, for example, as a dean, right?

00:17:35: Yes, that's very important.

00:17:37: And another aspect is also very important here.

00:17:40: Before I became... dean.

00:17:42: I was elected and then I had a workshop where all the legal aspects were explained and I was a bit surprised how many decisions I could formally, legally make on my own.

00:17:55: In many cases I only have to inform the faculty.

00:17:59: but we do have a different tradition of self-government, a different understanding here at our faculty and I think that is important because I know I will be in a few years again a normal professor, I will stick to these traditions, which are much more democratic than the legal situation prescribes.

00:18:20: So I could, as a dean, make many decisions and only inform the faculty, but I want the faculty to participate into these decision-making processes.

00:18:30: And I think that's due to the fact that I'm a dean who is elected and not appointed on a permanent position from the outside but elected as a normal professor of the faculty and who will be in a few years again a normal professor at the faculty.

00:18:47: So it is really also a question of what the single professor who becomes a dean or something else, some other function in the university, what his or her perspective and understanding of this position is.

00:19:06: So this really makes a difference, right?

00:19:08: Yes, of course.

00:19:09: Because the legal situation changed slightly during the last decades and it goes back to the hierarchical understanding of university where the management and the administration perspective is very important.

00:19:23: It has strengthened the executive power.

00:19:26: So That's what I refer to.

00:19:28: as I said, when I said many decisions, I can make them on, I could make them on my own and only inform the faculty.

00:19:35: And I think it's important not to use that power too much, but to instead to integrate and the democratic processes in my own decision making.

00:19:48: Yeah, yeah, I find it interesting.

00:19:51: And this is something that I also learned only some time ago that There are faculties at Bielefeld University, at this university, that don't have a doctoral committee.

00:20:04: But the dean decides who will be admitted, for example, to the doctoral study program or something like that, or admitted as a doctoral researcher.

00:20:16: And this is something, from my perspective, this is really... Strange, but yeah, they do it that way because the tradition is different or some or the understanding of what this government self government means is

00:20:31: different.

00:20:32: It's different.

00:20:32: The legal situation is though.

00:20:35: only when it comes to things like PhD programs, MABA programs, these are decisions the faculty has to make, but all the other, nearly all the other decisions could be made by the dean.

00:20:48: And I think it's important to keep the tradition of democratic academic self-government in our institution.

00:20:57: Yeah.

00:21:00: I didn't know that.

00:21:00: This is really, really strange because this is a lot of responsibility for someone who will do this function for only a few years.

00:21:09: Yes,

00:21:09: it is.

00:21:10: You have really to be aware of what you're doing there because when you're back as a professor, somebody could blame you.

00:21:21: Yes, but I also think it's a very useful restriction, self-restriction of your exercise of your power to be aware of the fact that you will be a normal professor again a few years after.

00:21:36: And what did you learn?

00:21:39: from from being I mean before you became dean you also were the speaker of the of the group of the professors right yes.

00:21:47: and and what have you learned from from doing these positions from being member of this of these committees?

00:21:59: well I learned much more about the decision-making processes and about the restrictions and possibilities that you have.

00:22:07: What changed when I became dean is that the university level became more and more important because on the one hand I'm responsible for the situation within the faculty but I also do interact with the directorate with the other deans and the other faculties and I think I learned a lot that I did not know before about the structure of the university and about decision-making processes at the university.

00:22:31: level and also beyond because we also get information on political decision-making processes and the outcome on the situation here at our university.

00:22:41: And I think as a dean, I have much more information than I had as a normal professor.

00:22:49: We have now talked about the universities, but I would like to also talk about the academic societies, the associations like the German sociological association, for example, because this is also a level where where doctor researchers could involve.

00:23:09: So what is what is different there?

00:23:12: Or what is the situation there from your perspective?

00:23:16: Well, I

00:23:17: think the situation changed a bit during the last years due to internationalization processes because many people I think do not engage in the same way they did before.

00:23:30: these associations on the national level, if you want to have a national career here in Germany, it is very important to be part of these associations and to engage yourself in these associations, because that's a kind of networking on the one hand, but it is also important to know the colleagues you could cooperate with on the national level.

00:23:50: And of course, the international level is very important, but I think we have a slight tendency in the last years to underestimate the importance.

00:23:59: of the national level for an academic career here in Germany.

00:24:04: And do you have the impression that it is easy to involve

00:24:09: there?

00:24:11: Absolutely.

00:24:12: You are very welcome, I would say.

00:24:14: Okay.

00:24:15: This is the perfect last word, I think.

00:24:19: You're very welcome.

00:24:20: This is what we all want to hear.

00:24:22: So thank you very much for being here and for giving these... insights.

00:24:28: Thank you.

00:24:29: Thanks for having me.

00:24:30: Now, I learned a lot from this talk with Oliver Flügel-Martinsen, but especially two things.

00:24:36: First, academic self-government is an achievement of the German university system that enables the university members to participate in all the different processes and decisions in the institution.

00:24:49: Thus, it also enables a kind of democracy that wouldn't be possible in a more managerial hierarchies.

00:24:56: And second, young researchers learn to navigate the structures of the institution by participating in academic self-government, and they get acquainted to interesting people who might become important for their further careers.

00:25:10: If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with your colleagues and friends.

00:25:15: And as

00:25:15: always,

00:25:16: we'd like to hear about your thoughts.

00:25:18: If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at bghs.unibielefeld.de.

00:25:27: Thank you for tuning in.

00:25:28: And until next time, optimism.

00:25:31: Have faith in yourself and make the best of the chances and challenges on your academic journey.