Internationalization

00:00:10: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the BJHS podcast where we explore the chances and challenges of life during a doctorate.

00:00:17: I'm your host Nicole Keufler.

00:00:20: Today's episode will be about one of the leading principles of the BJHS, internationalization.

00:00:27: Around thirty-six percent of our doctoral researchers are internationals, which shows that that topic is extremely important to us.

00:00:34: We offer a program that can be entirely completed in English without knowing any German, all of the information we give out comes in the German and English version, and we have a co-ordinated Internationalization Carapultrago.

00:00:47: But of course it also goes the other way around, where doctoral researchers from Germany can go abroad and visit different countries and different universities.

00:00:57: But there's only so much we can do alone.

00:01:00: The entire ecosystem of the university plays a huge role for caring for and supporting international doctoral researchers and doctoral researchers from Germany.

00:01:11: So institutions like the BDHS are also dependent on the university.

00:01:15: And to address these kinds of university politics, I thought there is no one better suited to talk to than Michaela Vogt, the Vice Director for International Affairs, Diversity and Society at Bielefeld University.

00:01:27: So, welcome Michaela and thank you so much for joining me today.

00:01:31: Thanks for having me.

00:01:32: Great to be here.

00:01:34: So, first

00:01:35: up,

00:01:36: I would like to ask the question, why do we even need internationalization?

00:01:41: I would like to start about the differentiation between society in general and university in particular, because I think our society has turned into a global one.

00:01:50: So it's not still segregated or separated.

00:01:54: It's something we need to think globally in general.

00:01:56: We see it with our children growing up.

00:01:58: They grow up in international networks.

00:02:00: So it means they are already global citizens or becoming more and more.

00:02:04: So, and from this perspective, academia also has somehow the task and should have the goal to support our students and our next generation, therefore, to develop their own profile as global citizens.

00:02:19: And this is something what.

00:02:21: happens by internationalization.

00:02:23: This happens in every day's life.

00:02:24: And on the one hand, we can say we need to support our students.

00:02:28: On the other hand, we need to realize that our universities are becoming more and more international per se.

00:02:34: So it's not still about needing internationalization.

00:02:37: It's more about realizing that internationalization is more or less.

00:02:42: a daily occurrence and a normality we all live in.

00:02:45: And to fill that idea with life on several levels, this is something what we should aim for.

00:02:52: So it's not only about needing internationalization, it's also about being aware and about finding the appropriate measures of how to implement internationalization in our university on the different levels like teaching or research or also in university culture.

00:03:11: I would also love to know what it personally means to you, since you're vice rector for internationalization or internationality.

00:03:21: International affairs.

00:03:22: But you can use all the terms across the vice rectorates.

00:03:26: I can imagine that it also is more of a personal thing for you.

00:03:30: It has become so so I'm a typical South German woman from a rural area.

00:03:37: so means that growing up I can tell a person's story.

00:03:40: so when I was in the fifth grade I got English as a new subject and I did not know what a foreign language is.

00:03:47: I was not aware that you need to learn a new set of vocabulary and to develop new terms or however existing terms to start to communicate in another language.

00:03:56: So this was news to me.

00:03:57: And this sounds very irritating potentially, but that has been the case.

00:04:01: And starting from there and then opening up my own mind to the potential of looking at global setups and to better understand how the world works or to realize that you don't understand how it works.

00:04:15: This is something that really very much helped me and my personality to develop myself to always broaden my own perspective, to more ask the why question, to not judge, to reflect.

00:04:29: to be open-minded and to more try to learn instead to know everything already.

00:04:35: So this is internationalization.

00:04:36: for me is an element of personal growth and the own personality.

00:04:41: And this is something that can only be enriching.

00:04:43: It's challenging at the same time, but it's also very enriching.

00:04:47: And this is something that very much also influenced my professional career.

00:04:51: And there as well, I started as a person who was far too shy to even communicate in English.

00:04:57: And also in conferences, I could listen to English.

00:05:00: Not a problem, but never said anything.

00:05:03: And then I started to collaborate with an English partner from Canada.

00:05:07: And well, it was quite a challenge for him, I think, to strengthen my back, to really start also holding talks in English.

00:05:14: And therefore, I can also understand when German PhDs are struggling with English as a communication or academic language.

00:05:22: And I can feel their barriers because I know how it felt in my case, but also being... where I am now, I know how important it was to however overcome the barriers and to really develop my international profile further.

00:05:37: Yeah, especially in academic area, it's really hard to go out there and actually Do a seminar in English or give talks in English because you always have the feeling my English is not good enough.

00:05:48: Exactly.

00:05:48: And this is something how Germans are written.

00:05:51: This is not a general thing.

00:05:52: So this is, I think the main quote I can repeat from my Canadian colleague.

00:05:56: He was like, what is your problem with your language?

00:05:58: I do understand you.

00:06:00: And that's the main thing.

00:06:01: It's not about speaking a perfect English.

00:06:03: It's about finding a way of how to communicate.

00:06:05: And I'm thankful that you try to use English as that language of communication.

00:06:11: So.

00:06:12: Don't be so scared just speak and we will understand each other.

00:06:16: and this was more or less the main the main message I needed because also when I'm holding international talks and also in this interview we're holding today I'm quite aware that I'll make a lot of language mistakes but it's okay because I'm not a native speaker but I'm open for the international context and therefore English is my language I need to communicate in and I think this is the message you need to except as a PhD student with all these hesitations you feel when teaching or holding your talk in English.

00:06:44: Yeah, I mean it also works the other way around with people coming to Germany and then being afraid to speak in German even though they can speak German just because they're afraid of making mistakes.

00:06:55: Yes, but then I often have international guests who come here to want to try out their German.

00:07:01: But then Germans in an academic field more or less immediately switch into English when they hear that someone else is not speaking German fluently and then sometimes they're a bit sad in the end that they couldn't.

00:07:13: try their own German skills.

00:07:16: Yeah, I think we can also talk about the more personal level later on.

00:07:20: But you said that it's more or less like prevalent in our day-to-day life, like internationalization.

00:07:26: But what is exactly the goal of the university for that?

00:07:30: I would add goals and to be aware that as a university we have different areas where we develop ourselves and this is teaching, research but also of course general networking.

00:07:42: And also there is a huge initiative at the moment being set up by our Vice Vector for Research and Research Networks and also by our Rector Angelika Eppler.

00:07:52: This is about setting up profile of the university.

00:07:55: It's called Profilbildung in German and there we try to understand better how our university is shaped and what our strengths are.

00:08:04: So therefore, thinking about internationalization, it is not in a lone standing goal because it is something that supports all of our initiatives in all the different segments.

00:08:14: So means in teaching as well as in learning and as well as in becoming strategic partners for others.

00:08:21: So therefore, internationalization is more or less a starting point or an enrichment for the things that are already happening here.

00:08:27: So means the offers that we have in the area of teaching, for example, we should also reflect.

00:08:34: on the opportunity to hold our courses also on the bachelor's level in English and of course as well in the master's level to reflect on bachelor's and master's programs so that we can share our offers and our teaching programs also with international students.

00:08:52: also would lead to, of course, increasing the number of students that we could generally reach out to if we have more English offers.

00:08:59: But also in research, sometimes speaking to single researchers, professors, they look irritated at me when I'm speaking about how do you want to internationalize your field, because they tell me that per se their field is international, because they don't find other experts in their field.

00:09:17: in the national context.

00:09:18: So internationalization is something that is deeply embedded and connected with research, also with outreach, with visibility, to be able to compete with other universities, demands that we do internationally visible research and that we are as researchers present in international journals, for example.

00:09:36: So therefore, on many levels, internationalization is not the alone standing task, but is something that comes along with all the other tasks that shape our profile.

00:09:48: Speaking of different research areas, are there different ways of approaching internationalization depending on the different research areas?

00:09:56: I would definitely say so.

00:09:58: The colleague I mentioned.

00:09:59: for them internationalization is a daily normality and they don't even speak about it.

00:10:04: And in other fields, one needs also to clearly acknowledge that they are more nationally connected.

00:10:11: For example, teacher education.

00:10:12: Teacher education, as there are teachers being educated for more or less mostly national school system, means that these programs are normally very nationally oriented.

00:10:22: And it means as well that researchers oftentimes focusing more on the German school system.

00:10:28: So it means that... per se, we have different levels of internationalization, I would say, in the studying programs, but also in the research fields.

00:10:37: And the more particular and specific a research field is, the less likely you will find an equivalent in the German context.

00:10:47: And this then leads into internationalization per se.

00:10:52: So yes, they are different very much, but also they emphasize different elements of internationalization because for researchers where international colleagues are like the closest when it comes to the topics the outcome of an international collaboration is another one then for for example persons in sociology or in the humanities because they are bringing international researchers together means bringing different cultural contexts together and also looking at them analytically.

00:11:22: So means for these disciplines, internationalization means to enrich their research topics.

00:11:28: For natural sciences, oftentimes internationalization is the normality because the research field is so particular.

00:11:36: So next I would like to ask what challenges internationalization poses for the university and maybe also some practical challenges.

00:11:48: Yeah, challenges and potentials, because on the one hand, Bielefeld is neither Munich nor Berlin.

00:11:55: So if an international student is aiming to find an appropriate studying program in Germany, he might be aware that there is Munich and Berlin.

00:12:06: and potentially some few other big cities like Cologne, but not no Bielefeld firsthand.

00:12:14: And this is a challenge, of course, because we do actively need to acquire students and need to create awareness.

00:12:23: Another downside, what I really feel is that we don't have an airport.

00:12:26: This might sound a bit surprising, but bringing in international guests.

00:12:31: Well, you, upside, you can say you have like several airports around and you can choose between at least five of them, but not having an airport in the city means that the guests are always struggling to come here by Deutsche Bahn and to find a proper connection.

00:12:46: So this is something what really is logistically challenging.

00:12:50: When it comes to the visibility of Bielefeld, I think coming along with this awareness that we are neither Berlin nor Munich.

00:12:57: We need to reflect on how to better promote what we have as offers at our institution.

00:13:02: And I think regarding teaching, there are several portals we can use and already do use actively.

00:13:07: It's also about personal experiences.

00:13:09: So means that every student who's been here and who's enjoyed studying here will be an alumni and an advocate for our institution.

00:13:18: And this is something what I experienced when I was in Sayang in China a few weeks ago.

00:13:24: There was a professor who had spent parts of his career in Bielefeld and he was a luman jana.

00:13:30: so means he really is a huge fan of luman and he was speaking about Bielefeld as the place to be also when he was speaking to his colleagues like why haven't you yet been in Bielefeld?

00:13:42: it's so amazing being there.

00:13:44: i'm half Bielefeldian.

00:13:45: so go there.

00:13:46: It would be enriching for your research career.

00:13:49: And these advocates we need for our institution.

00:13:52: So the ones that ran through a studying program or a PhD program successfully as in BGHS, and then go back into their home countries if they want to.

00:14:00: And then just tell everyone that they made an amazing experience and really had a high quality studying or PhD program they went through.

00:14:10: This is then social media as well.

00:14:11: This is personal context.

00:14:12: These are all the levels.

00:14:14: So on the one hand, we can try to overcome the barriers like not being visible per se, potentially externals not knowing where Bielefeld is or which kind of city Bielefeld is to compensate that kind of gap with active commercials and

00:14:31: with

00:14:32: taking care of educating persons who love being here and then share this information with the world.

00:14:38: So because we're not Berlin or Munich, we have to have good quality research and

00:14:45: Well, we do have the quality of course, but it's like being also sharing that actively and no one is only one example.

00:14:53: So we have, I could list up many topic areas where there are great achievements that can be actively promoted.

00:15:00: So this is something that I really learned with our process of building up a university profile because there is kind of a small leaflet where you have an overview over our current.

00:15:12: focus areas that we defined or that we found like some month ago.

00:15:17: And I could take that kind of overview with me and then show it to my research colleagues and to the other rectorats and to the other professors.

00:15:26: What are the areas where we have our particular strength in and what are the persons you could then collaborate with if you have an overlapping research profile?

00:15:34: So to better carry out what we already have and also with more self-esteem that we are very very good and outstanding in many areas.

00:15:43: So this is something what I would wish for.

00:15:45: Sometimes I feel that the OWL mentality like being more humble about what we achieved not really is somehow contributing to very visible international profile because not everything what we achieved is self-explanatory.

00:16:01: It's great and it's something that needs to be recognized and shared.

00:16:05: Yeah, that's true.

00:16:06: The mentality here is quite humble to say it positively.

00:16:12: So if people go out and advertise for our university and people then come here, what can the university do to make these doctoral researchers or students feel welcome and also supported?

00:16:27: Oh, yeah, that's a very important question.

00:16:29: And of course, this collides, per se, with the Germans fancying administrative processes.

00:16:36: So, and this is nothing too special for Bielefeld University, but a general German thing.

00:16:40: And having internationals coming here, sometimes they are just overwhelmed.

00:16:45: by all the demands.

00:16:46: So the one thing is that we can try on this level to really lower barriers, means making sure that all the forms are available in English, trying to have mentoring programs where students really have a starting point or a support system that is already existing, by the way.

00:17:01: So students coming here, internationals coming here, they have various offers where they can connect with and they then get support.

00:17:09: But also after having started here.

00:17:12: It is about daily life.

00:17:14: And there I would say it is about putting together or creating a joint welcome culture, which not only refers to internationals, which refers to all the persons with diverse backgrounds, needs and interests.

00:17:28: So to put together a culture or to create a culture where everyone can feel welcome, we are also speaking out based on own opinions is allowed.

00:17:38: but in a way that it's constructive and reflexive and that's appropriate to be shared in university.

00:17:45: I think this is one of the main challenges also for universities in general and this is something that also is very important for internationals.

00:17:52: So it's on the one hand it's about of course offers to lower barriers and to be there to have contact persons available that can support with certain problems with visa for example.

00:18:04: And on the other hand, it's about working in general on a good welcoming atmosphere, not only for internationals.

00:18:12: Yeah, so speaking of the more personal level, in your personal experience, what can we individually do to make sure that international doctoral researchers, students feel more welcome in our community, of our university?

00:18:27: I hear that this sometimes fails.

00:18:29: Oftentimes there are also good examples.

00:18:32: The first thing is to be open.

00:18:34: for diversity.

00:18:35: This might sound like average, but I mean it in a very pragmatic way.

00:18:40: So when a person has another kind of cultural background or another kind of need, it's about enabling the person to speak about the needs and then to find ways of how to adapt to these needs as well or to reflect on where these needs might collide with German principles and ethical standards, of course.

00:19:01: And this again leads into a constructive communication process and reflection process, a joint one.

00:19:07: So to take everyone serious with his or her background and also ideas and demands and then to reflect on what's feasible or not.

00:19:16: And then it can also be pragmatic things like, as I said, being honest about own failure, also to lower expectations when it comes to the level of English.

00:19:28: Because as long as it's not an holistic program, it's not a problem if a person doesn't speak proper English, it's about communication again.

00:19:37: And of course, it's about offers at our campus that are also run in English.

00:19:43: So means when evening events are only available in German or talks of invited persons are only available in German, then internationals are basically excluded from these offers.

00:19:55: Means that in these moments university culture is then however shaped without them.

00:20:01: But sometimes it's necessary because, for example, if you want to run an offer for administrative staff at Bielefeld University, you can't run everything in English, so that's not the goal.

00:20:11: But I would think that one part of creating a welcome atmosphere means to actively reflect also on the language and the cultural access that you choose for the offer that you shape or that you plan.

00:20:25: And I think this is something where there is already a lot of potential at our institution.

00:20:30: Also, I feel a lot of changes over the last year, so that the awareness is increasing.

00:20:35: And this is something we are, of course, still working on.

00:20:40: Are there any other points you would like to talk about when it comes to that topic?

00:20:45: Because I don't really have an overlook over that topic, so maybe you have something more to add to that.

00:20:49: Neither have I. I try to get that one, because being in charge of diversity, inclusion, gender equality, and internationalization also makes me reflect on the intersections, of course.

00:21:02: And the joint challenge is... from these topic areas is bringing together different cultures, different backgrounds, different languages.

00:21:11: And starting with this awareness and then creating the university culture, welcoming atmosphere we were speaking about.

00:21:20: And to see that as a holistic topic that then contributes to our process of finding profiles for our university, I think this is very enriching.

00:21:33: also for me, because then I don't see an internationalization only as a segmented part.

00:21:38: I really see it as interwoven in every initiative.

00:21:41: There's something I'm learning day by day about the complexity of my vice-rectorate, but also about the learnings I can make every day that really help me again to understand a little bit better.

00:21:55: So I think it helps me to define my role and my profile and therefore also to develop university further by doing so.

00:22:05: Maybe I'm being a bit nosy, but what are some concrete recent learnings you have about that topic?

00:22:14: At the moment, I'm reflecting a lot about, honestly spoken, about how international universities, compared to our universities, present themselves.

00:22:23: this idea of carrying out everything that you achieved, like having a presentation where you list up all your awards, all your amazing researchers, all your international achievements, everything.

00:22:35: And then I try, I look in comparison of what we have to offer and how we sell ourselves.

00:22:40: And this is something where I really feel that we should improve our international visibility.

00:22:44: So this is something what I'm learning from other institutions or how you can do it.

00:22:50: whatever you can sell.

00:22:51: This is sometimes also a bit surprising for me.

00:22:54: Another learning is to see how, for example, gender equality and diversity are lived and transferred into actions at other institutions.

00:23:03: For example, our close strategic partner, the University of Osaka, they have an own unit for gender and diversity.

00:23:12: and inclusion, and I visited them and heard about their initiatives.

00:23:16: And I felt that there was a lot of overlap, so opportunities where we can start new exchanges, but also some differences.

00:23:24: And there again, I feel that in the area of research, in many areas we are already well connected internationally.

00:23:30: But in the areas of central administration and university culture and what this means, these are areas that are still kept a bit national or even local.

00:23:42: So to open up this idea of university culture.

00:23:46: also to international reflections and impulses and to start from there with a huge range of learnings.

00:23:54: I think this is something I'm at the moment chewing on a lot because I think it might be one of the things I want to emphasize more.

00:24:03: It's really interesting to hear these topics from from a more of a polar view, maybe, because I mean, we have it, we experience it in a day to day life, but what the university really does is most of the time not really there for us to see.

00:24:22: So it's really interesting to hear about.

00:24:24: what you work on specifically.

00:24:26: And that's also an interesting and important feedback because what we do should really improve also what you do, for example, in BGHS or should improve the life of PhD students.

00:24:36: So therefore, if the measures that a Rectorat or anyone chooses are not the appropriate ones to really improve daily life and procedures, processes and cultural aspects, then we always need to adjust.

00:24:49: what we do in the Rectorat because this is our goal is to improve and university and make life in university better.

00:24:57: and if we fail then I'm always happy about every feedback that I receive to reflect on things that can be put together in a different way.

00:25:05: In the end we can only develop university further as a big team where everyone contributes from different perspectives and with different backgrounds.

00:25:15: So it's also important to give feedback.

00:25:17: Yeah, please.

00:25:18: This was like very, very largely spoken about that.

00:25:21: Yeah.

00:25:22: Because I'm very open to learn.

00:25:24: what I can improve or what we can improve as vector art and where the main problems are or the main challenges of barriers are.

00:25:31: And as we had spoken about the beginning coming from a small, very small village in Bavaria, sometimes I might have I surely have blind spots when it comes to particular aims and needs of persons with international backgrounds with language barriers or also with other barriers.

00:25:49: So I can't represent all these dimensions also means that I as a person need to be and I am very open to learn from the person who can speak about the barriers.

00:25:59: And on the other hand, the person who feel the barriers need to share them with me and I'm quite grateful when they do so.

00:26:06: And with these words, we come to the end.

00:26:08: So thank you so much for these insights and for your time.

00:26:11: Thank you for having me and for the questions.

00:26:15: So we always hear that internationalization is important, but it is also necessary to talk about how and why we want to achieve that goal.

00:26:25: And as we heard internationalization is not just one goal to achieve.

00:26:30: It is embedded into our day-to-day life and therefore we have to take it into consideration with nearly everything we do in the university.

00:26:38: And we learned.

00:26:39: if there are things that bother us or don't go smoothly, please don't hesitate to give feedback.

00:26:45: If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to share it with your colleagues and friends.

00:26:49: And as always, we love to hear your thoughts.

00:26:52: If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at btshs.uni-spielefeld.de.

00:27:02: Thank you for tuning in.

00:27:03: Until next time, keep writing, keep pushing forward, and remember, you've got this.