Another Perspective of a Professor on Supervision and the PhD Phase

00:00:09: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the BJHS podcast where we explore the chances and challenges of life during a doctorate.

00:00:17: I'm your host Nicole Keufler.

00:00:20: In this episode, we will get kind of a different perspective on the PhD phase because I will talk to Rud Ayas.

00:00:27: She's professor of qualitative methods of empirical social research at the Faculty of Sociology here at Bedefort University.

00:00:34: And of course, she's the director of the BJHS.

00:00:38: So thank you, Ruth, for joining me.

00:00:40: Thank you for having

00:00:41: me.

00:00:41: And first of all, do you roughly know how many dissertation projects you have already supervised?

00:00:46: That's quite a difficult question for me.

00:00:48: To be honest, I don't know exactly.

00:00:51: There have been quite a few in the past.

00:00:55: And now today I have ten as a first supervisor and three or four as a second supervisor.

00:01:03: And I don't need much more now.

00:01:06: Yeah, I can imagine that it's quite a lot of work.

00:01:09: Okay, so first of all, I would love to know what your experience was like as a doctoral researcher and what your relationship with your supervisor looked like.

00:01:19: With my own dissertation, I had a quite privileged situation.

00:01:24: I was working in a research project by German Science Foundation.

00:01:30: and later I had a position at University of Gießen back then, so I was never dependent on grants, and I've always been involved in groups, in research groups, in teams, and the dissertation was never my sole or single endeavor, but it was always a part of my work.

00:01:52: as a scientist at an institute at a university.

00:01:57: So I thought back then it was a quite privileged situation and I also was very privileged with my own supervisor.

00:02:06: My supervisor, Jörg Bergmann, I was very, very lucky to have him.

00:02:11: He was also my boss.

00:02:13: He was the principal investigator in the research project where I did my dissertation.

00:02:22: I owe him a lot because he was always very, very supportive.

00:02:26: He always showed me, so to say, where to go, but not the direct path.

00:02:33: He always pushed me forward and he was very, very supportive.

00:02:39: A person who was very much oriented towards his doctoral students and his doctoral researchers.

00:02:46: So you had quite the pleasant experience with your supervisor because he pushed you without giving you the path forward, basically.

00:02:56: Did that influence your own style of supervision?

00:02:59: or how would you describe your style of supervision?

00:03:04: My own style of supervision, you'd better ask the candidate.

00:03:08: Yeah, it had a lot of influence on my own style of supervision because I want to be a supporter of what the kind that they do and I don't want to teach them.

00:03:19: I want to be a companion on their path through the dissertation.

00:03:25: At the same time, it is always clear that being a supervisor or having a supervisor that this encompasses a professional relationship.

00:03:36: It's a professional relationship because what we do is work and what the candidate is doing is writing a PhD dissertation.

00:03:44: And this takes some time.

00:03:45: It's over a period of about maybe five years for the doctoral researcher writing his or her dissertation.

00:03:53: And this relationship between candidate and supervisor is first.

00:04:00: It is a professional relationship and a second, it's an asymmetrical relationship.

00:04:05: We are not friends.

00:04:07: The supervisor will later give a grade.

00:04:10: He will write the review.

00:04:13: And he's the one who is criticizing the PhD project.

00:04:19: It's not the other way around.

00:04:20: When I meet my doctoral candidates, it's not them to criticize me, but it's always me to criticize their work.

00:04:27: They bring chapters and drafts.

00:04:29: We discuss their chapters and drafts, or their table of contents, but we never discuss mine.

00:04:35: So it's really a symmetrical relationship, and I think a... a supervisor, especially when you are a sociologist, should be aware of that asymmetrical social relationship that you have with your doctoral candidates.

00:04:51: And the term supervisor, you can also see in the term that it's a question of hierarchy and it's not a symmetry involved.

00:05:01: For the doctoral researcher, Himo herself, It takes four, maybe five years to write a dissertation.

00:05:09: And this time, in these five years, the doctoral researcher, what I see is a sort of coming of age of a scientific or academic coming of age.

00:05:22: The doctoral researcher starts as a sort of novice in his area.

00:05:27: And I, the supervisor, I'm the expert and this changes over time.

00:05:32: I mean, in the end, um, the doctor research knows much more than I do.

00:05:37: And then here she is the absolute expert on that specific topic.

00:05:42: So I want to see that metamorphosis and I want to be a companion of that metamorphosis.

00:05:49: That's, that sounds very lovely.

00:05:52: How did you learn how like, quote unquote, learn?

00:05:56: how to supervise your doctoral research.

00:05:58: So did you basically do the exact opposite of your supervisor or the exact same thing your supervisor did?

00:06:07: Well, my own experience was too good.

00:06:12: Thank you, Jörg Bergmann.

00:06:13: It was too good for me to change my style completely compared to that what Jörg Bergmann did.

00:06:19: But my own style

00:06:21: has

00:06:21: also developed over the years.

00:06:24: I tried to see my candidates about four or five times in a year to be and I try to be available otherwise as well.

00:06:33: So if there's something urgent to discuss or some catastrophes happen as catastrophes happen when you read the dissertation.

00:06:42: So I want to see my doctor candidates on a regular basis.

00:06:48: I want to know what they are working on.

00:06:52: I want to know if there are problems because I would like to face the problems and to work on the problems before they get too big.

00:07:00: And definitely, I also want to know how they are.

00:07:05: What kind of problems do you observe the most?

00:07:12: Well, there

00:07:13: are

00:07:13: crises when you do a dissertation.

00:07:17: There will be crises and there will be more than one.

00:07:20: Be prepared to that.

00:07:21: So the problems can be... very, very different.

00:07:25: So you can have problems with finances and with the grant.

00:07:30: Maybe your grant expires and you still have to finish your dissertation.

00:07:36: You might have problems with health.

00:07:38: You might have problems with your family.

00:07:40: You might have problems with immigration officers and so on.

00:07:44: But the concerning dissertation, very often, what I see is that the research question changes over time.

00:07:53: And that's normal because you start to be the expert of your own topic and then you see more precise and more clear what the right answer, what the right question is and what you have to do to get the right answers.

00:08:08: And when research questions... develop or redevelop or change over time.

00:08:15: Very, very often, doctor candidates have problems coping with that because they are scared of losing their topic.

00:08:23: But it's not a bad experience when you really find your research question.

00:08:28: It's a good experience.

00:08:29: It's good for the dissertation because it always means you come closer to the core of it.

00:08:35: So it's absolutely normal to have these challenges.

00:08:39: It is normal to have the challenges and the crisis.

00:08:42: They are part of the of the dissertation process.

00:08:46: Writing dissertation means having crisis, not always, but well, at least once or twice a year.

00:08:55: Okay, yeah.

00:08:56: I mean, I think it's also very comforting to know that if you're in a crisis that it's kind of part of the experience and that everyone kind of experiences the same thing.

00:09:06: It's a feeling that doesn't belong to you.

00:09:08: You only have borrowed that feeling from others writing a dissertation and you will give it back.

00:09:14: That's a very lovely way to say that.

00:09:17: Coming back to the styles of supervision, I would also like to know if you have observed different types of ways of supervision.

00:09:28: different styles and types of supervision and also different types of supervisors.

00:09:35: I observed everything from a well-intensed mothering to a certain degree of neglect.

00:09:44: And I think that both extremes are not the right way for a good supervising relationship.

00:09:52: The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

00:09:56: I think best is to see each other on a regular basis and on a professional basis.

00:10:04: Okay, so neglect in the sense of that they never see each other and mothering in the sense of they basically look over the shoulder of the doctoral researcher all the time.

00:10:18: intense mothering can also mean that you get too much involved into the personal problems of the doctor or candidate.

00:10:26: And that you, for example, when they have problems with discipline or problem in writing down things, these are problems that the candidate has to solve him or herself.

00:10:36: It's not the supervisor to solve the problem for the candidate.

00:10:41: Okay.

00:10:42: And so basically solving the problems that were.

00:10:46: There are also other resources available in university that you can take advantage of and not the professor always doing that.

00:10:55: I think the professor and the supervisor, his responsibility, her responsibility is to help you solving your scientific problems.

00:11:06: And for all other problems, you need other support.

00:11:10: You need... peers, you need friends, you need friends at BGHS, you need friends in your apartment.

00:11:19: My recommendation would always be build up a peer group, build a study group with people who know your problems because they are writing a PhD as well.

00:11:30: So you can be on a reciprocal basis supportive to each.

00:11:35: other so that fighting a crisis can be something that you can do alone but you can also do it together with others.

00:11:43: Yeah that's a common topic that has encompassed the you.

00:11:46: prior episodes of the podcast also where building a network is extremely important and building a peer group that can also support you through those crises.

00:11:56: You need someone who goes out with you for a walk, who takes you for a holiday weekend and walking in the mountains, who gets you out of your writing crisis and takes you to the theater or to the movies, something like that.

00:12:10: So

00:12:11: that you have a supportive system around you.

00:12:14: Yeah, definitely.

00:12:16: So there are obviously a lot of different ways of being a supervisor.

00:12:21: So when someone comes to you and wants to have their dissertation supervised by you, do you also evaluate if you two would fit together on that sort of level apart from if the topic or the quality of the proposal is good?

00:12:40: Well, I actually know many of my candidates beforehand.

00:12:47: It's quite seldom that I don't know a doctor candidate at all.

00:12:55: Very often the PhD candidates have done their master's thesis with me as supervisor.

00:13:03: Sometimes they are my assistants and my team at the Faculty of Sociology.

00:13:10: Sometimes they work in a research project as a researcher.

00:13:15: or they have been earlier tutors or students assistants of mine and my team.

00:13:21: So to be honest, I know a lot of them beforehand and you also learned to know the candidate in the process of writing the proposal for Faculty of Sociology.

00:13:38: So before the research... on the PhD project really starts, you will have time to learn to know each other a bit.

00:13:49: But I think the key question is always, am I the right expert for that dissertation?

00:13:56: Am I really the one that is the best for supervising this PhD?

00:14:03: And to be honest, I decline on a weekly basis now.

00:14:07: because very often people just come and ask me to be their supervisor and I can't see any relationship between their topic and my own research and I can't do that.

00:14:16: I can't do that at all.

00:14:18: There are much more people at the Faculty of Sociology or at other universities in Germany or in Europe or in the world to be better supervisors than

00:14:29: me.

00:14:31: And I think that the... key question is really is my supervisor expert on my topic?

00:14:37: because this should be a key question for looking for who will be my supervisor and the question on if I fit on the personal level.

00:14:50: I won't overestimate that.

00:14:52: You don't have to like your supervisor.

00:14:56: You can compare to a relationship to your doctor or your dentist.

00:15:01: You don't have to like your dentist.

00:15:03: He has to be a good dentist.

00:15:05: You don't have to like your doctor at the hospital.

00:15:08: She has to be a good doctor.

00:15:10: So don't overestimate personal sympathy.

00:15:13: It's the expertise that really counts.

00:15:16: Everything else will come I'm sure because you also grow together you the supervisor and you the candidate in those five years within that process.

00:15:28: So you don't put as much emphasis on on the interpersonal likings or not liking that person but rather if you if the topics.

00:15:38: fit together.

00:15:38: Absolutely.

00:15:39: I won't overestimate the personal sympathy and the personal style.

00:15:44: And also don't forget that the expectations of you as a doctor or a candidate, a doctor or a researcher and the needs you have, they change over time.

00:15:55: and they might be completely different in two years or in three years.

00:16:00: and maybe you like your supervisor a lot but he can't help you or she can't help you.

00:16:05: so it's really really more important to have a supervisor who is an expert and who is willing to to supervise you and to show you where to go and how to reach your reach your goal.

00:16:20: so the expertise

00:16:21: counts.

00:16:23: For me it's much more important than anything else.

00:16:26: and never forget you have a second supervisor at Bielefeld University at BGHS and so you can also lean back on two persons where you can go to and that you can ask for advice for help or that you can bring your problems and ask them to solve the problems.

00:16:48: So it's basically more important that the supervisor also kind of adjusts to your needs.

00:16:57: When you supervise a PhD project, you see a lot of things happening in those five or six years, four, five, six years.

00:17:07: And sometimes you you see that a candidate is writing intensely on a certain chapter and then I would always say leave her alone.

00:17:19: And in other phases you see them sort of wandering around, wandering intellectually around and not knowing what to do next or how to solve a specific problem.

00:17:31: And I think as a supervisor you should get the feeling when to intervene and when when when to let the candidate just go into his own direction where he's already walking to.

00:17:45: And do you think that, I mean, let's say a supervisor doesn't really have that feeling.

00:17:50: Should you talk then to your supervisor and be like, Hey, right now, I don't really need you to do X, Y and Z, but I need to do differently.

00:18:01: It depends on your supervisor.

00:18:02: If your supervisor wants to see you on a regular basis, you will meet him or her anyway.

00:18:09: And if you have a supervisor who is not doing this, then ask for an appointment and show the problem.

00:18:21: We supervisors, we know that you have crisis.

00:18:25: And we've seen a lot of those crises as before.

00:18:30: We know that writing dissertation is a harsh enterprise and that you will need support and that you will have ups and downs and the supervisors I know are willing and ready to help.

00:18:44: That's why we do it.

00:18:46: It's a sort of giving of giving support.

00:18:50: What a supervisor wants is that you the doctoral researcher that you are sort of Self-determined that you show personal responsibility and intellectual responsibility for your project and that you yourself Look for for the solutions.

00:19:11: don't come and ask your supervisor for solutions But come and show what solutions you have already been looking for and that obviously did not work up to now so that you can discuss on a on a specific level and that you can be then on a reciprocal level discussing a specific problem.

00:19:33: that brings you further, probably.

00:19:36: Yes, and basically not thinking that the supervisor will solve all your issues for you, but you have to show that you actually thought about it yourself.

00:19:44: Supervisor is not your mom.

00:19:46: The supervisor is not your therapist.

00:19:48: He's a supervisor and he's a scientist.

00:19:50: She's a scientist and address her for her scientific expertise.

00:19:57: Well, thank you for sharing your experience with us and for being here.

00:20:02: Thank you for asking me.

00:20:03: I think that interview really showed that it is important to be able to adapt to the needs of a doctoral researcher, but also for them to not only rely on the supervisor, wanting them to solve every issue they have.

00:20:19: After all, they are there to support you and help you be your own independent researcher.

00:20:24: And it also shows that every supervisor has a different style of supervision, so keep that in mind when looking for one.

00:20:31: We also have another episode on supervision and what to do when issues arise, so if you're interested in that, I can highly recommend that episode.

00:20:39: And there's also another episode with a professor, Frank Rühner, on that topic that I will also link in the show notes.

00:20:46: If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to share it with your colleagues and friends.

00:20:50: And as always, we love to hear your thoughts.

00:20:53: If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at bjhs.uni-spielefeld.de.

00:21:03: Thank you for tuning in.

00:21:04: Until next time, keep writing, keep pushing forward, and remember, you've got this.